I was aware of it but I really didn't know the extent of the infighting between the various LGBT groups until I got substack. A lot of it actually seems to be driven by age demographics. Younger people look at LGBT and have multiple new ways of expressing themselves in that context. I'm jokingly sad that some of these young people do gender like it was Legos. You can add remove pieces at will.
The ground is moving under our feet socially and culturally and many other ways and trying to hold on to the past ways is difficult. If it's worth a fight for you that's what you need to do. When I was a kid I found a little bookstore that had lesbian romance novels. I love those I read them all the time. Then around age 10 I found out I wasn't quite the girl I thought I was which set off al lot of soul searching for years of my life but I must say that now I am as complete a woman as possible and I am a full-fledged member of a lesbian only group. What can I say.
When I was in university I craved lesbian spaces. All I wanted was to be around people like me and in an environment where I was celebrated as a butch and not pushed to be a they/them or trans. I neglected all of my other responsibilites, skipped classes, skipped meals to pay for bus fare to the nearby city where the lesbians would meet, I gave everything to be around other lesbians. I met multiple girlfriends in that community, and there were lots of good things about it, but there was one Queen Butch who really did not like me, and I was singled out by her and the group online so much that after a breakup where my ex was on better terms with the Queen Butch I eventually just decided to leave the community on facebook and stop going to in-person events because it was no longer pleasant for me.
After I left that community and moved to a new area, I’ve also made an effort to connect with local lesbians both my age and intergenerationally, and those experiences have also been lackluster.
The lesbians my age (20s) that I know are using the word because it’s cool again with Chappell Roan/Renee Rapp type celebrities claiming it, but many of them are actually very confused or ambivalent about their identities. Most of these women hold sexist ideas about women, passively or actively support queer/gender ideology, and view butch/femme negatively. So honestly while many of them are great people who I connect with for other reasons, I resent having to listen to their meaningless pontifications about lesbian media and tiktok-ified lesbian “culture” (aka thoroughly unsexy contrived internet trends that will be over in 30 seconds) as if i’m supposed to connect with them over it.
When I’ve made intergenerational lesbian connections, I was initially really excited to meet older women on the same path. But unfortunately, I’ve witnessed some really messed up family/life situations because of these connections. And I’ve never met older butch/femme couples, so I’ve never really met any women that have made it easier for me to envision my future. In fact, in the instances where I saw really sad situations, it made me feel horrible for being a lesbian and dread my future, because I’m not seeing any other models of ordinary non-celebrity lesbians in my life.
I do really like connecting with other intelligent feminist butch/femme lesbians on the internet (obviously, that’s why I contribute to Stone Butch Disco). I believe that changing the discourse might make things better in 5+ years, and I do want things to get better. But in this moment I don’t yearn for womynsland or even a local lesbian bar or cafe. And that’s because when I imagine an in-person lesbian space, I expect to meet more of the types of people that already exist - either older women that don’t have stable lives or confused young women who are also unstable, and under the influence of queer/gender ideology, unsure of what they want, too hapless to stand up for women or themselves, with weird social games going on all the time. Sounds like hell, not heaven.
It’s really tough to connect with people who are disconnected from themselves and reality, isn’t it?
Whenever I have been around a larger group of women, there’s always been childishness, immaturity and singling-out.
Many just swallow whatever we are socialized as and never put things into question.
I don’t trust the whole “woman-loving-woman” or “woman-identified” thing — I’ve learned that a lot of people who make those statements do so duplicitously.
Internalized misogyny and reductive/delusional views of womanhood, lesbians and topics such as butch/femme has made it unbearable to be in these circles.
As you say, it isn’t a matter of age either, as both older and younger women are guilty of it.
The best thing we can do, at times, is to fend for ourselves; create very small circles of few trusted people. At least, I find that this is what helps me most.
It is also my hope that, talking about this, encouraging critical thinking, and interacting with more like-minded lesbians will bring more of us together.
If we don’t keep on speaking up, who will? It is silence, in my opinion, that has allowed such confusion.
I also make peace with the fact that it might never work, and it might never reach some. Cannot say we haven’t tried, though, can we?
Keep on sharing your experiences & speaking the truth.
PS: from my perceptions a lot of “women’s lands” from the US seem to be full of political lesbians — that indeed sounds like hell on earth.
Hey Akiva, I really love how you contribute to SBD!
There has been an unspoken tradition in the lesbian community to take young lesbians under their wings and provide guidance. Usually a butch will lead a butch, or an older couple will provide guidance for a younger couple. I've been super fortunate that the Gen X butch/femme couple that took my wife and I under their wings have had a long and healthy relationship and have been very candid in sharing any hardships they've faced. For the past 15 years, I've been able to go to them for advice on everything.
I'm an elder (middle aged) millennial and I've always had a strong desire to pay it forward and do they same for other young lesbians, especially butch like me. I've got to say, it's terrifying being candid with the Gen Z lesbians. It's hard to tell what their views about gender are, and if they agree with queer theory at all, they are super sensitive to talk to. My wife and I are at the point in our careers where sharing beliefs about "queer theory" could jeopardize our careers. I would like to apologize on behalf of my generation for being too cowardly to be there for Gen Z. I commend you on your courage because you are a role model for the younger alphas without having had a mentor yourself.
I think that is changing, slowly. Trans activists have done an excellent job of making themselves unlikable. Seriously, they have made a hot mess and set trans people not only back but actually worse of than in the past. Everyone is at the beginning of turning on them….with facts. I’m scared for the real trans people but the truth is there is only a tiny number of them in the trans umbrella. I think it will be much safer to speak out politely in the future.
I like the idea of having boundaries and sticking with them. My first reaction was that people like my bi wife should be able to participate but I quickly discarded that thought. If she is involved and the next person’s partner then that person’s friend we end up right back here. So, she will have to deal with be excluded. I’m past the point of being nice and thinking everyone should be included. Nope, that for me redefined as a non-man. Lesbians don’t even exist according to those people.
Online portion is mandatory because of how spread out we are and there needs to she a process to try to add members who don’t know someone. That is part of the point, to reach out to little baby lesbians and offer mentorship. I’m from a rural community and came out at 18, about 30 years ago. I was in extreme isolation as the only out person in the entire community. Any contact with other lesbians would have meant the world. Perhaps a membership application. Advertising is pretty out of the question as it would immediately be condemned as transphobic. What a bunch of bullshit. Does any other minority have this issue? I don’t think so, gay men are much better at boundaries than lesbians. Also, gender ideology crew is concentrated woman hating aggressive males with females backing the up. Fuck, this sucks.
ALL OF THIS!!!! I have often pushed myself to attend the occasional event but too often it's inclusive of everybody and their mama. It's wearisome and such a turn off. Yet the alternative sucks.
The idea of a lesbian-only bookstore/cafe/meeting spot sounds delightful. Sometimes when I spot a lesbian in the wild, I am so tempted to say hi and just start talking and hope they don't get weirded out lol. Then again I remember she could be a handmaiden and I live in a small community where word of my terfery could get around and not only affect me but my kiddo. So I stay silent.
But gotta keep trying till something clicks I suppose.
Thank you for this well-written and researched dissertation on how we need to get our shit straight. And good luck to all your upcoming projects. Cheers!
That's a struggle, isn't it? It often happens that other dykes clock me in the wild — or I them — and we exchange a "knowing nod". Lol.
It can be difficult and awkward to approach lesbians out of the blue and, indeed, impossible to discern whether they are in the cult or not. That's why I think online groups could be a good starting point.
I've been brainstorming how to create effective screening tools for advertisement of or invitation to exclusive events. One is having a short survey you click thru like the "Are you 18?" buttons on some sites. It could be presented in a way that doesn't reveal the politics. Like a button where you click "Transwomen are women yes/no" and if you say yes you get a page that doesn't have the info and if you say no you do get it.
Or a word of mouth invitation where it can't be passed on unless the person affirms the rules.
I dunno, just riffing here. Its really really hard to do this because there are so many people who go put off their way to find & eradicate any dissenters.
I even thought of trying to name a group something like perimenopause support or something but men are suing gynecologists so that's no real deterrent. Anyways.
I'm sick to death of this whole thing and I'm ready to build.
I LOVE the mountain idea! Might be a hike for me but definitely intriguing. I have no camping skills or knowledge but would love to learn lol.
Yeah how do you screen folks in this digital age?! I've also thought of tattoos of an acceptable, small symbol as a ticket to entry.
There is a print magazine currently in circulation that has a wealth of information regarding events, resources for lesbians traveling, etc etc. That could be used to advertise/notify women.
Perimenopause group sounds awesome too. I'd love to talk about all the shenanigans my body is up to lately with other lesbians.
Nature events so not have to be off grid survival tests! Ha! IME one can organize nature events to accommodate all levels and also consider accessibility.
YES YES YES. We need to start where we are. Even modest efforts (a picnic, a meetup at a restaurant or in a park) will create bonds and energy. You are absolutely right, no one is coming to save us. Thanks so much for this!
I was aware of it but I really didn't know the extent of the infighting between the various LGBT groups until I got substack. A lot of it actually seems to be driven by age demographics. Younger people look at LGBT and have multiple new ways of expressing themselves in that context. I'm jokingly sad that some of these young people do gender like it was Legos. You can add remove pieces at will.
The ground is moving under our feet socially and culturally and many other ways and trying to hold on to the past ways is difficult. If it's worth a fight for you that's what you need to do. When I was a kid I found a little bookstore that had lesbian romance novels. I love those I read them all the time. Then around age 10 I found out I wasn't quite the girl I thought I was which set off al lot of soul searching for years of my life but I must say that now I am as complete a woman as possible and I am a full-fledged member of a lesbian only group. What can I say.
"The promotion of lesbian couples and normalcy of life instead of queer tantrums would help"
I like this quote
Definitely gonna use "queer tantrums" now
It's a good one, isn't it? Especially considering how many "queers" behave like spoiled children.
Please, can someone open a real lesbian bar and not a “queer bar”…
That'd be shut down quickly. But maybe a bar linked to some other business? That way, finances wouldn't be enough of a reason to let in the unwanted.
It would still need to operate "underground", though; spreading word through acquaintances. I am afraid that, in this day and age, it would not work.
When I was in university I craved lesbian spaces. All I wanted was to be around people like me and in an environment where I was celebrated as a butch and not pushed to be a they/them or trans. I neglected all of my other responsibilites, skipped classes, skipped meals to pay for bus fare to the nearby city where the lesbians would meet, I gave everything to be around other lesbians. I met multiple girlfriends in that community, and there were lots of good things about it, but there was one Queen Butch who really did not like me, and I was singled out by her and the group online so much that after a breakup where my ex was on better terms with the Queen Butch I eventually just decided to leave the community on facebook and stop going to in-person events because it was no longer pleasant for me.
After I left that community and moved to a new area, I’ve also made an effort to connect with local lesbians both my age and intergenerationally, and those experiences have also been lackluster.
The lesbians my age (20s) that I know are using the word because it’s cool again with Chappell Roan/Renee Rapp type celebrities claiming it, but many of them are actually very confused or ambivalent about their identities. Most of these women hold sexist ideas about women, passively or actively support queer/gender ideology, and view butch/femme negatively. So honestly while many of them are great people who I connect with for other reasons, I resent having to listen to their meaningless pontifications about lesbian media and tiktok-ified lesbian “culture” (aka thoroughly unsexy contrived internet trends that will be over in 30 seconds) as if i’m supposed to connect with them over it.
When I’ve made intergenerational lesbian connections, I was initially really excited to meet older women on the same path. But unfortunately, I’ve witnessed some really messed up family/life situations because of these connections. And I’ve never met older butch/femme couples, so I’ve never really met any women that have made it easier for me to envision my future. In fact, in the instances where I saw really sad situations, it made me feel horrible for being a lesbian and dread my future, because I’m not seeing any other models of ordinary non-celebrity lesbians in my life.
I do really like connecting with other intelligent feminist butch/femme lesbians on the internet (obviously, that’s why I contribute to Stone Butch Disco). I believe that changing the discourse might make things better in 5+ years, and I do want things to get better. But in this moment I don’t yearn for womynsland or even a local lesbian bar or cafe. And that’s because when I imagine an in-person lesbian space, I expect to meet more of the types of people that already exist - either older women that don’t have stable lives or confused young women who are also unstable, and under the influence of queer/gender ideology, unsure of what they want, too hapless to stand up for women or themselves, with weird social games going on all the time. Sounds like hell, not heaven.
Hi Akiva,
Thank you for such thoughtful comment.
We share similar experiences.
It’s really tough to connect with people who are disconnected from themselves and reality, isn’t it?
Whenever I have been around a larger group of women, there’s always been childishness, immaturity and singling-out.
Many just swallow whatever we are socialized as and never put things into question.
I don’t trust the whole “woman-loving-woman” or “woman-identified” thing — I’ve learned that a lot of people who make those statements do so duplicitously.
Internalized misogyny and reductive/delusional views of womanhood, lesbians and topics such as butch/femme has made it unbearable to be in these circles.
As you say, it isn’t a matter of age either, as both older and younger women are guilty of it.
The best thing we can do, at times, is to fend for ourselves; create very small circles of few trusted people. At least, I find that this is what helps me most.
It is also my hope that, talking about this, encouraging critical thinking, and interacting with more like-minded lesbians will bring more of us together.
If we don’t keep on speaking up, who will? It is silence, in my opinion, that has allowed such confusion.
I also make peace with the fact that it might never work, and it might never reach some. Cannot say we haven’t tried, though, can we?
Keep on sharing your experiences & speaking the truth.
PS: from my perceptions a lot of “women’s lands” from the US seem to be full of political lesbians — that indeed sounds like hell on earth.
Hey Akiva, I really love how you contribute to SBD!
There has been an unspoken tradition in the lesbian community to take young lesbians under their wings and provide guidance. Usually a butch will lead a butch, or an older couple will provide guidance for a younger couple. I've been super fortunate that the Gen X butch/femme couple that took my wife and I under their wings have had a long and healthy relationship and have been very candid in sharing any hardships they've faced. For the past 15 years, I've been able to go to them for advice on everything.
I'm an elder (middle aged) millennial and I've always had a strong desire to pay it forward and do they same for other young lesbians, especially butch like me. I've got to say, it's terrifying being candid with the Gen Z lesbians. It's hard to tell what their views about gender are, and if they agree with queer theory at all, they are super sensitive to talk to. My wife and I are at the point in our careers where sharing beliefs about "queer theory" could jeopardize our careers. I would like to apologize on behalf of my generation for being too cowardly to be there for Gen Z. I commend you on your courage because you are a role model for the younger alphas without having had a mentor yourself.
I think that is changing, slowly. Trans activists have done an excellent job of making themselves unlikable. Seriously, they have made a hot mess and set trans people not only back but actually worse of than in the past. Everyone is at the beginning of turning on them….with facts. I’m scared for the real trans people but the truth is there is only a tiny number of them in the trans umbrella. I think it will be much safer to speak out politely in the future.
I like the idea of having boundaries and sticking with them. My first reaction was that people like my bi wife should be able to participate but I quickly discarded that thought. If she is involved and the next person’s partner then that person’s friend we end up right back here. So, she will have to deal with be excluded. I’m past the point of being nice and thinking everyone should be included. Nope, that for me redefined as a non-man. Lesbians don’t even exist according to those people.
Online portion is mandatory because of how spread out we are and there needs to she a process to try to add members who don’t know someone. That is part of the point, to reach out to little baby lesbians and offer mentorship. I’m from a rural community and came out at 18, about 30 years ago. I was in extreme isolation as the only out person in the entire community. Any contact with other lesbians would have meant the world. Perhaps a membership application. Advertising is pretty out of the question as it would immediately be condemned as transphobic. What a bunch of bullshit. Does any other minority have this issue? I don’t think so, gay men are much better at boundaries than lesbians. Also, gender ideology crew is concentrated woman hating aggressive males with females backing the up. Fuck, this sucks.
ALL OF THIS!!!! I have often pushed myself to attend the occasional event but too often it's inclusive of everybody and their mama. It's wearisome and such a turn off. Yet the alternative sucks.
The idea of a lesbian-only bookstore/cafe/meeting spot sounds delightful. Sometimes when I spot a lesbian in the wild, I am so tempted to say hi and just start talking and hope they don't get weirded out lol. Then again I remember she could be a handmaiden and I live in a small community where word of my terfery could get around and not only affect me but my kiddo. So I stay silent.
But gotta keep trying till something clicks I suppose.
Thank you for this well-written and researched dissertation on how we need to get our shit straight. And good luck to all your upcoming projects. Cheers!
Hi Evie,
Thank you for your support.
That's a struggle, isn't it? It often happens that other dykes clock me in the wild — or I them — and we exchange a "knowing nod". Lol.
It can be difficult and awkward to approach lesbians out of the blue and, indeed, impossible to discern whether they are in the cult or not. That's why I think online groups could be a good starting point.
I live in the mountains in an area that had regular gatherings for gay men/faeries. I would love to see nature based gatherings like this for us.
I've been brainstorming how to create effective screening tools for advertisement of or invitation to exclusive events. One is having a short survey you click thru like the "Are you 18?" buttons on some sites. It could be presented in a way that doesn't reveal the politics. Like a button where you click "Transwomen are women yes/no" and if you say yes you get a page that doesn't have the info and if you say no you do get it.
Or a word of mouth invitation where it can't be passed on unless the person affirms the rules.
I dunno, just riffing here. Its really really hard to do this because there are so many people who go put off their way to find & eradicate any dissenters.
I even thought of trying to name a group something like perimenopause support or something but men are suing gynecologists so that's no real deterrent. Anyways.
I'm sick to death of this whole thing and I'm ready to build.
The screening tool — what a smart idea. I'm down for it.
Where are the tech-y dykes that know how to build this stuff?
Cult members love nothing more than an opportunity to proclaim their righteous goodness. Might as well leverage that.
I LOVE the mountain idea! Might be a hike for me but definitely intriguing. I have no camping skills or knowledge but would love to learn lol.
Yeah how do you screen folks in this digital age?! I've also thought of tattoos of an acceptable, small symbol as a ticket to entry.
There is a print magazine currently in circulation that has a wealth of information regarding events, resources for lesbians traveling, etc etc. That could be used to advertise/notify women.
Perimenopause group sounds awesome too. I'd love to talk about all the shenanigans my body is up to lately with other lesbians.
Side note: you just reminded me I forgot to add "advertise on Lesbian Connection" as an additional resource.
That is exactly the magazine to which I referred. Wasn't sure if I should state their name explicitly. I feel protective lol.
Nature events so not have to be off grid survival tests! Ha! IME one can organize nature events to accommodate all levels and also consider accessibility.
That would be so much fun!
YES YES YES. We need to start where we are. Even modest efforts (a picnic, a meetup at a restaurant or in a park) will create bonds and energy. You are absolutely right, no one is coming to save us. Thanks so much for this!
Thank you, my friend!